Comments on: Epistemology, Innocence, and the Spiritual Development of Humanity (An Essay)

By: Daniel Urban

Daniel Urban — Wed, 11 Oct 2006 05:26:15 +0000

Great thoughts, Jon! I especially like your insight that the way to handle innocence lost is not by attempting the impossible task of recovering your former state, but moving forward to a new place where you’re capable of handling the new and irrevocable knowledge you’ve gained. Moving through lust to love is the perfect example. It reminds me of NT’s insistence that the resurrection is not the resuscitation of the old body, but the passing through death and coming out the other side into a new life. It’s an abstract and speculative thing to try to understand just what that means, but your essay helps me think about it. There’s an analogy between this kind of true resurrection and the real-life process of moving forward from, say, loss of sexual innocence (likened to death) to love (new life), rather than trying to go backwards (resuscitation).

By: Krista Rappahahn

Krista Rappahahn — Wed, 11 Oct 2006 05:26:15 +0000

Wow. Makes me want to act! As much as I sometimes doubt whether I can do it, whether I can really be a disciple of God, whether I have the compassion, the strength, the love to attempt to follow (if only a bit) in the ways of Jesus, reading some of these thoughts really inspire me to want to do just that. I love this: “The solution is neither to go back (naivete) nor to stay where we are (cynicism/despair), but to move forward (hope)… Christ was not ignorant of good and evil, but rather so fully human that he was prepared to go through life with knowledge of them both, walking the knife-edge of good, effortlessly.” With a God who all-knowingly sent his son through that for us, how can we not just drop everything for Him? Thanks for writing this Jonathan.

By: Jonathan Lipps

Jonathan Lipps — Wed, 11 Oct 2006 05:26:15 +0000

Dan– NT’s thoughts are perfectly applicable here; thanks for mentioning them! It is indeed the difference between resuscitation and resurrection. We do not want to be taken back to an old life (however good)–but ahead to a completely new life.

Krista– the doubt is real and not to be dismissed, but not more real (hopefully) than the reality of the life it is possible to live through following Christ.

By: clara williams

clara williams — Wed, 11 Oct 2006 05:26:15 +0000

My favorites:

“If the knowledge by which we lose innocence is irreversible, it stands to reason that the character which we gain by its redemption is equally so.”

“So, to sum up our tortuous path from philosophy to spirituality…(end irrelevant)”

“That is why we must, if we are to redeem our individual lost innocences, and indeed our corporate ones, listen with attentive ears and open hearts to the call of our First Brother in True Humanity.”

And, on three, Pain is our mother, she makes us recognize each other (the song). Indeed. Jung’s Wounded Healer as well. I like it.

Additionally, the use of “corporate” here makes me free associate to a fantastic piece Anne Lamott just wrote on how to have money and be good in Oprah Magazine (yes, Oprah). Kind of a Christian Libertarian but-you’re-still-allowed-to-enjoy-cake deal.

By: Justin Smith

Justin Smith — Wed, 11 Oct 2006 05:26:15 +0000

Your description of individual redemption helps me see its analogy to our corporate redemption. God does not “undo” history when we, unprepared, misuse knowledge. Rather, he creatively invents ways to teach us character.

By: nt bott

nt bott — Wed, 11 Oct 2006 05:26:15 +0000

Jonathan, what can I say...you speak my love language! I started to comment and then decided I would need a separate blog to do it justice...I invite you all to read A Fall For All Seasons...And Reasons and continue the discussion!

By: Natalie Wiesen

Natalie Wiesen — Wed, 11 Oct 2006 05:26:15 +0000

Lipps that was really cool and inspiring. It was a good angle to show the importance, life, and awesomeness of following Christ. I really like thinking about character development in terms of knowledge and being able to handle the knowledge so that we can respond like Jesus would in any situation. Being able to handle knowledge with wisdom and character is something that I greatly long for.

It is such a struggle when we first begin to repent of our old ways of sin and bad habits or ways of thinking. I feel vulnerable to so easily turn back to that pattern, habit, or sin. And there is a lot of anxiety, guilt, fear, etc in this process. It is like I have to beat my body into submission because I continue to do the things I do not want to do (as Paul says in Romans). It makes sense to me that in those areas of sin, I have perverted knowledge and loss of innocence, and the only hope I have is in Jesus to restore me through character development and wisdom so that I can handle the knowledge rightly. That is why discipleship and apprenticeship to Jesus is not an option as a Christian. We absolutely need to fervently seek and follow Jesus to grow in our character and become like him to fully experience the abundance of life he came to restore unto us…and to fully be able to handle any knowledge with character and wisdom. The Lord wants us also to be able to handle his power through us, and that takes a GREAT amount of character and wisdom. Though we will never be perfect and that is for sure…and knowledge puffs up but love builds up. Sorry these thoughts are not so coherent.

By: Peter Marshall

Peter Marshall — Wed, 11 Oct 2006 05:26:15 +0000

Wonderful essay.

I think the significance in your reasoning comes out in the way you tie knowledge to the corporate human condition of the inappropriate loss of innocence and the evil that stems from this path. In the same way that I love watching my little brother play high school football I love witnessing and reading the way you bring order out of disorder in your writing. Both are a fantastic use of natural and disciplined abilities.