Comments on: The Dark Knight and René Girard http://www.jonathanlipps.com/blog/2008/07/the-dark-knight-and-rene-girard/ Creativity && Integration Sat, 28 Jan 2012 01:06:25 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Reaction: Ring of Freedom at Re:Creation http://www.jonathanlipps.com/blog/2008/07/the-dark-knight-and-rene-girard/comment-page-1/#comment-584 Reaction: Ring of Freedom at Re:Creation Fri, 10 Dec 2010 00:22:39 +0000 http://www.jonathanlipps.com/blog/?p=448#comment-584 [...] Walter Wink’s work on “the powers”, though Wink makes use of René Girard, whom I really like, as well. Additionally, attending a talk by Miroslav Volf gave me a lot of food for thought! [...] [...] Walter Wink’s work on “the powers”, though Wink makes use of René Girard, whom I really like, as well. Additionally, attending a talk by Miroslav Volf gave me a lot of food for thought! [...]

]]> By: David http://www.jonathanlipps.com/blog/2008/07/the-dark-knight-and-rene-girard/comment-page-1/#comment-486 David Fri, 03 Apr 2009 22:42:06 +0000 http://www.jonathanlipps.com/blog/?p=448#comment-486 Great article, and responses. But I feel that a correction is in order regarding your observation of the ferries. What I love about all of Chris Nolan's movies (with an assist from his brother Jonah for co-writing this and "The Prestige) is that he only shows us what he wants to show us. What we know about Bruce Wayne/Batman is that he makes flawed decisions sometimes, and we as an audience know this or would say how ourselves how we don't agree with some things he does, like pancaking cop cars or making irrational decisions like turning himself in, against the advice of his close friends. What Nolan does RE the ferry situation, and why the Joker is right in the end, is that Batman doesn't know what happened on that boat. Batman says to The Joker that the civilians just showed they are good, but Batman is not entirely correct. And the Joker, deep inside, knows this. Batman doesn't know that a majority or more of those "sweet and innocent civilians" (as the Joker says sarcastically) voted to blow up the prisoner boat. Just as that one man who stepped up to it froze (and did the right thing by not blowing up that boat), another could have gone thru with it all the way. The Joker, in the end, wins, because he correctly judges humanity as wanting to fight each other off, even the "civilized ones", if it came down to it. I mean, just look at how each of those civilians responded to the situation when it happened : "We can't die, those men had their chance!"....ect ect. The boat scene is uncomfortable to watch, because it is all too real. We all know people in real life who would act like that in that situation, but not enough of us would do what that prisoner did, by throwing out the detonator. But that's humanity...that's how we are. Batman, though, makes the true heroic sacrifice in the end. Batman, who puts his life on the line everytime he tries to stop a criminal, is more heroic than a Spiderman or a Superman, for that very reason. He's a flawed man, who makes mistakes, and flawed for not admitting his mistakes at times. But tries to hold true to his one rule, and when faced with the test of time, he makes the ultimate sacrifice to protect all the hard work done to make things right. (BTW - what if the civilian blew up the prisoner boat? What would have really happened? That question gives the situation and the scene more meaning, as this is The Joker that we are talking about here. If the Joker was placing ultimate judgment on those who would go out of their way to kill out of desperation, maybe thru some sick twist of fate each of the detonators really would have been for their own respective boats) Great article, and responses. But I feel that a correction is in order regarding your observation of the ferries. What I love about all of Chris Nolan’s movies (with an assist from his brother Jonah for co-writing this and “The Prestige) is that he only shows us what he wants to show us. What we know about Bruce Wayne/Batman is that he makes flawed decisions sometimes, and we as an audience know this or would say how ourselves how we don’t agree with some things he does, like pancaking cop cars or making irrational decisions like turning himself in, against the advice of his close friends.

What Nolan does RE the ferry situation, and why the Joker is right in the end, is that Batman doesn’t know what happened on that boat. Batman says to The Joker that the civilians just showed they are good, but Batman is not entirely correct. And the Joker, deep inside, knows this. Batman doesn’t know that a majority or more of those “sweet and innocent civilians” (as the Joker says sarcastically) voted to blow up the prisoner boat. Just as that one man who stepped up to it froze (and did the right thing by not blowing up that boat), another could have gone thru with it all the way.

The Joker, in the end, wins, because he correctly judges humanity as wanting to fight each other off, even the “civilized ones”, if it came down to it. I mean, just look at how each of those civilians responded to the situation when it happened : “We can’t die, those men had their chance!”….ect ect. The boat scene is uncomfortable to watch, because it is all too real. We all know people in real life who would act like that in that situation, but not enough of us would do what that prisoner did, by throwing out the detonator. But that’s humanity…that’s how we are.

Batman, though, makes the true heroic sacrifice in the end. Batman, who puts his life on the line everytime he tries to stop a criminal, is more heroic than a Spiderman or a Superman, for that very reason. He’s a flawed man, who makes mistakes, and flawed for not admitting his mistakes at times. But tries to hold true to his one rule, and when faced with the test of time, he makes the ultimate sacrifice to protect all the hard work done to make things right.

(BTW – what if the civilian blew up the prisoner boat? What would have really happened? That question gives the situation and the scene more meaning, as this is The Joker that we are talking about here. If the Joker was placing ultimate judgment on those who would go out of their way to kill out of desperation, maybe thru some sick twist of fate each of the detonators really would have been for their own respective boats)

]]> By: Bryan http://www.jonathanlipps.com/blog/2008/07/the-dark-knight-and-rene-girard/comment-page-1/#comment-475 Bryan Sat, 17 Jan 2009 05:23:50 +0000 http://www.jonathanlipps.com/blog/?p=448#comment-475 I would add that in _I See Satan Fall ..._, Girard makes the point that a functioning judicial system is the institution that fixes the problem. It is precisely the judicial system, of course, that Joker subverts and destroys by the movie's end. I saw the movie before reading Girard's book; thanks for making the comparison. I would add that in _I See Satan Fall …_, Girard makes the point that a functioning judicial system is the institution that fixes the problem. It is precisely the judicial system, of course, that Joker subverts and destroys by the movie’s end.

I saw the movie before reading Girard’s book; thanks for making the comparison.

]]> By: Parabolico http://www.jonathanlipps.com/blog/2008/07/the-dark-knight-and-rene-girard/comment-page-1/#comment-474 Parabolico Fri, 09 Jan 2009 21:39:26 +0000 http://www.jonathanlipps.com/blog/?p=448#comment-474 I don't know but It's a good and easy book to buy but here you can find many excerpts: http://girardianlectionary.net/less_fest/st_michael.htm I don’t know but It’s a good and easy book to buy but here you can find many excerpts:

http://girardianlectionary.net/less_fest/st_michael.htm

]]> By: 4l83r7 http://www.jonathanlipps.com/blog/2008/07/the-dark-knight-and-rene-girard/comment-page-1/#comment-472 4l83r7 Sat, 03 Jan 2009 18:41:11 +0000 http://www.jonathanlipps.com/blog/?p=448#comment-472 Did you know a source where I can download that book "I saw Satan fall like lightning by Rene Girard"? thanks in advance. Did you know a source where I can download that book “I saw Satan fall like lightning by Rene Girard”? thanks in advance.

]]> By: Parabolico http://www.jonathanlipps.com/blog/2008/07/the-dark-knight-and-rene-girard/comment-page-1/#comment-455 Parabolico Sun, 07 Sep 2008 19:28:00 +0000 http://www.jonathanlipps.com/blog/?p=448#comment-455 I've had the same impression, especially about the desire of the two protagonists and the end of the film based on the necessary we have of a scapegoat. I read all the books of Girard. I Know personally Girard, he's very kind and deep. The only step that he doesn't meet completely is the creative use of the sacrifice which is necessary. The victim can forgive but also can use the sacrifice to do his best. And this what is generally told and lived in Christian tradition. Thank you for your paper I’ve had the same impression, especially about the desire of the two protagonists and the end of the film based on the necessary we have of a scapegoat. I read all the books of Girard. I Know personally Girard, he’s very kind and deep. The only step that he doesn’t meet completely is the creative use of the sacrifice which is necessary. The victim can forgive but also can use the sacrifice to do his best. And this what is generally told and lived in Christian tradition. Thank you for your paper

]]> By: Desmond http://www.jonathanlipps.com/blog/2008/07/the-dark-knight-and-rene-girard/comment-page-1/#comment-451 Desmond Thu, 28 Aug 2008 19:13:47 +0000 http://www.jonathanlipps.com/blog/?p=448#comment-451 You are an amazingly coherent writer and thinker. I'm inclined to think, as a Christian, that Girard is taking his ideas from the life, death and resurrection story of Jesus (he'd concur I believe). And thus, the Batman story, along with the slightly less well developed Harry Potter modern sensation are retellings of the Christ narrative. Your blog was delicious in drawing the lines, and I'll be borrowing it in explaining Girard to others! Good show. You are an amazingly coherent writer and thinker. I’m inclined to think, as a Christian, that Girard is taking his ideas from the life, death and resurrection story of Jesus (he’d concur I believe). And thus, the Batman story, along with the slightly less well developed Harry Potter modern sensation are retellings of the Christ narrative. Your blog was delicious in drawing the lines, and I’ll be borrowing it in explaining Girard to others! Good show.

]]> By: Jason Kill http://www.jonathanlipps.com/blog/2008/07/the-dark-knight-and-rene-girard/comment-page-1/#comment-450 Jason Kill Wed, 27 Aug 2008 18:02:01 +0000 http://www.jonathanlipps.com/blog/?p=448#comment-450 Delicious theater popcorn for the brain. Your essay, that is. Delicious theater popcorn for the brain. Your essay, that is.

]]> By: impossibleape http://www.jonathanlipps.com/blog/2008/07/the-dark-knight-and-rene-girard/comment-page-1/#comment-422 impossibleape Mon, 11 Aug 2008 14:46:28 +0000 http://www.jonathanlipps.com/blog/?p=448#comment-422 Great post thanks for the insights Girard is a revelation Great post
thanks for the insights

Girard is a revelation

]]> By: Melissa http://www.jonathanlipps.com/blog/2008/07/the-dark-knight-and-rene-girard/comment-page-1/#comment-415 Melissa Thu, 31 Jul 2008 19:10:40 +0000 http://www.jonathanlipps.com/blog/?p=448#comment-415 "But ultimately this film is about society's desire for a scapegoat. "You either die a hero, or live long enough to see yourself become the villain," say at least two of the characters, and it climaxes with Batman on the run from the authorities because people have started to blame him for what is wrong with their lives." This article explores The Wall Street Journal's attempt to make a political connection between TDK and George W. http://blog.beliefnet.com/godspolitics/2008/07/the-dark-knight-a-tribute-to-g.html Thought it interesting that he made a scapegoat connection as well... “But ultimately this film is about society’s desire for a scapegoat. “You either die a hero, or live long enough to see yourself become the villain,” say at least two of the characters, and it climaxes with Batman on the run from the authorities because people have started to blame him for what is wrong with their lives.”

This article explores The Wall Street Journal’s attempt to make a political connection between TDK and George W. http://blog.beliefnet.com/godspolitics/2008/07/the-dark-knight-a-tribute-to-g.html Thought it interesting that he made a scapegoat connection as well…

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